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Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$bottomlinks_returncontent - Line: 6 - File: global.php(1070) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$forumjump_select - Line: 5 - File: inc/functions.php(3442) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1686) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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{myadvertisements[zone_1]}
حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل
الصفي غير متصل
عضو رائد
*****

المشاركات: 4,035
الانضمام: Mar 2004
مشاركة: #34
RE: حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل
(10-02-2010, 08:41 PM)لكي تجثو باسم يسوع كل ركبة كتب:  عزيزي الصفي:

هل من الممكن ان تأتي لي بدليل واحد من القران على ما تقوله؟
من اين اتيت بان التحدي هو اثبات انهم لا يمتلكون التوراة؟

القران يفرق بين التوراة/ كتاب الله و بين الكتاب( كتابة بني اسرائيل) الذي قالوا بانه من عند الله:

1- التوراة/ كتاب الله :
إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُواْ لِلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُواْ مِن كِتَابِ اللّهِ وَكَانُواْ عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاء فَلاَ تَخْشَوُاْ النَّاسَ وَاخْشَوْنِ وَلاَ تَشْتَرُواْ بِآيَاتِي ثَمَنًا قَلِيلاً وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ {المائدة/44}
2- الكتاب/ كتابة بني اسرائيل:
فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ {البقرة/79}
و قد حكى القرآن ايضا كيف تعامل بنو اسرائيل مع النص التوراتي الالهي بن جعلوه قراطيس أبدوها و لكنهم يخفون كثير:

وَمَا قَدَرُواْ اللّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ إِذْ قَالُواْ مَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ عَلَى بَشَرٍ مِّن شَيْءٍ قُلْ مَنْ أَنزَلَ الْكِتَابَ الَّذِي جَاء بِهِ مُوسَى نُورًا وَهُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ تَجْعَلُونَهُ قَرَاطِيسَ تُبْدُونَهَا وَتُخْفُونَ كَثِيرًا وَعُلِّمْتُم مَّا لَمْ تَعْلَمُواْ أَنتُمْ وَلاَ آبَاؤُكُمْ قُلِ اللّهُ ثُمَّ ذَرْهُمْ فِي خَوْضِهِمْ يَلْعَبُونَ {الأنعام/91}

و عندما طلب منهم القران ان ياتوا بالتوراة ليتلوها ( و هنا يخطئ الجميع في فهم فاتلوها بانها تعني أقرءوها كما سأبين لاحقا) فانه لا يقصد القراطيس التي هي اصلا مبدية و لكنه يقصد النص التوارتي الالهي ( و فعل يخفونها راجع الى حقبة قديمة قبل أن يختفي تابوت العهد و الذي يحوي الواح التوراه النص الالهي).

و طلب القران بان يأتوا بالتوراة لا يعني بأنهم يمتلكونها امتلاكا فيزيائيا ماديا , و هي صيغة طلبية معروفة في القران القصد منها استنفاذ حجة المدعي , كما في الآية التالية:
أَمَّن يَبْدَأُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ وَمَن يَرْزُقُكُم مِّنَ السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضِ أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ {النمل/64}
اذ لا أحد يملك برهانا ان هناك الها مع الله , و انما هي مجرد ادعاءات.



اقتباس:التحدي التعجيزي الذي تتكلم عنه هو الذي يؤكد موضوع الحوار الرئيسي هو : قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لَسْتُمْ عَلَى شَيْءٍ حَتَّى تُقِيمُوا التَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ.
كيف يطلب منهم اقامة التوراة و الانجيل اذا لم يكن بين ايديهم كماالقران نفسه يصرح في اكثر من موقع؟

اقامة التوراة و الانجيل تُفهم بانه العمل بحكم معين في مسألة محددة و هذا الحكم معروف لهم بلغهم بالتواتر ممن سبقهم و لكنهم لا يريدون اقامته.
اقتباس:أدع القران و ال عمران يردان عليك :
أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا نَصِيبًا مِنَ الْكِتَابِ يُدْعَوْنَ إِلَى كِتَابِ اللَّهِ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّى فَرِيقٌ مِنْهُمْ وَهُمْ مُعْرِضُونَ

ابن كثير:
يقول تعالى منكرًا على اليهود والنصارى، المتمسكين فيما يزعمون بكتابيهم اللَّذين بأيديهم، وهما التوراة والإنجيل، وإذا دعوا إلى التحاكم إلى ما فيهما من طاعة الله فيما أمرهم به فيهما، من اتباع محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم، تولَّوا وهم معرضون عنهما، وهذا في غاية ما يكون من ذمهم، والتنويه بذكرهم بالمخالفة والعناد.

أين الرد عليّ من آل عمران؟
القران يقول أوتوا نصيبا ( من) الكتاب. فما معنى ( من) و ما هو ( الكتاب) المقصود؟
ابن كثير يقول ( التوراة و الانجيل) بل يقول ( بكتابيهم) و النص يقول ( الكتاب) .
ابن كثير هو الذي في واد آخر و ليس أنا.

اقتباس:الاعراف:
وَالَّذِينَ يُمَسِّكُونَ بِالْكِتَابِ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ إِنَّا لَا نُضِيعُ أَجْرَ الْمُصْلِحِينَ (170)
اي كتاب يمسكون؟ الكتاب الوهمي يعني؟
معنى يمسكون بالكتاب اي يعملون به , و نحن لم نقل بانهم ليس عندهم حكم التوراة بل قلنا بانهم لا يملكونها امتلاكا ماديا. و أمر عادي أن تعرف ما في وصية ابائك بدون أن تمتلك نصا مدونا اليس كذلك؟




اقتباس:البقرة:



وَلَمَّا جَاءَهُمْ كِتَابٌ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ مُصَدِّقٌ لِمَا مَعَهُمْ وَكَانُوا مِنْ قَبْلُ يَسْتَفْتِحُونَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا فَلَمَّا جَاءَهُمْ مَا عَرَفُوا كَفَرُوا بِهِ فَلَعْنَةُ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ (89)


يقول تعالى: { وَلَمَّا جَاءَهُمْ } يعني اليهود { كِتَابٌ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ } وهو: القرآن الذي أنزل على محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم { مُصَدِّقٌ لِمَا مَعَهُمْ } يعني: من التوراة،

مصدق لما معهم من كتاب "هاري بوتر" ام التورةا بام عينها؟
بل هذه الاية مثال جيد جدا لاثبت لك بأن ما معهم ليس كتابا مدونا.

فالاية تقول ( و لما جاءهم كتاب من عند الله) و هو القران الكريم . فهل القران كان نصا مدونا عندما جاءهم؟
لا . و لكن كلمة كتاب في العربية لا تعني ان يكون النص مدونا :
(كَتَبَ رَبُّكُمْ عَلَى نَفْسِهِ الرَّحْمَةَ )
و كتب هنا لا تعني أن الله تعالى دون على نفسه.


اقتباس: الَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ يَتْلُونَهُ حَقَّ تِلاوَتِهِ
ماذا يتلون ؟
هذه مناسبة لاصحح فهم كلمة (يتلون) فمن الملاحظة أن الجميع يستعمل كلمة ( يتلو) بمعنى يقرأ و هذا غير قصد القران. الفعل تلى يتلو يعني يتبع.
و القران في هذا الاية يقول بان الذين اتيناهم الكتاب ( يتبعونه) حق اتباعه.

خطأ أن نفهم بانهم يقرءونه حق قراءته .
و كأنك سمعت بقراءة حق و قراءة باطل.



اقتباس:أقول لك و بصراحة عزيزي الصفي: ان نقاشاتي معك و المتعلقة بالقران تتعبني لانك تنهج منهجك وحيدا في عكس ما يقوله القران و المفسرون دوما. فالبديهي و الواضح للمفسرين و للقران نفسه, ياخذ لديك دوما منهجا "فريدا" في التفسير و المعاني.
ما أقوله مستنبط من النص القراني , و ما تورده فيه كثير من اراء قائليه بدون الالتزام بالنص القراني كما اريتك اعلاه من كلام ابن كثير.



(تم إجراء آخر تعديل على هذه المشاركة: 10-04-2010, 12:44 PM بواسطة الصفي.)
10-04-2010, 10:26 AM
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الردود في هذا الموضوع
RE: حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل - بواسطة handy - 09-26-2010, 01:32 AM,
RE: حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل - بواسطة الصفي - 10-04-2010, 10:26 AM
RE: حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل - بواسطة handy - 10-04-2010, 01:26 PM,
RE: حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل - بواسطة handy - 10-04-2010, 08:49 PM,
RE: حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل - بواسطة handy - 10-05-2010, 02:09 PM,
RE: حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل - بواسطة handy - 10-05-2010, 10:14 PM,
RE: حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل - بواسطة handy - 10-08-2010, 09:13 PM,
RE: حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل - بواسطة handy - 10-05-2010, 08:04 PM,
RE: حتى تقيموا التوراة و الأنجيل - بواسطة handy - 10-06-2010, 01:39 AM,

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