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Warning [2] Undefined variable $board_messages - Line: 28 - File: global.php(961) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$bottomlinks_returncontent - Line: 6 - File: global.php(1070) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$forumjump_select - Line: 5 - File: inc/functions.php(3442) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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إستفتاء: هل أنت من المؤمنين بالله ؟
نعم .. أؤمن بالله وحده
لا.. لا أؤمن بوجود الله
[عرض النتائج]
 
إلى من يكفر بالذات الإلهية !!
مسلم غير متصل
الله ليس انسانا
*****

المشاركات: 2,035
الانضمام: Nov 2003
مشاركة: #122
الرد على: إلى من يكفر بالذات الإلهية !!
شكرا لطرحك وهذا ما رددت به على ما طرحت :
من الملاحظ أن الإنسان يسقط واقعه على كل ما يمكن أن يشاهده من أمور جديدة أو على كل ما يخطر على باله من أمور تفوق واقعه ولا توجد فيه , ولا تجد لها وجودا سوى كفكرة في عقل الإنسان , فنرى بأن مثال الطفل الصغير صاحب اللعبة الذي طرحه الزميل منصر هو ما أشرت إليه , فالإنسان يحاول بما يملك من أدوات متاحة عنده وهنا نجد أهمها هو العقل بما يملك من خاصية للتفكير والتحليل , فكان أن اسقط واقعه على أصل الوجود , فرأى مثلا أن الاشياء لا يمكن لها أن توجد من دون مسبب , فلا سيارة يمكن أن تصنع لوحدها بل تحتاج صانعا لها ولا أي شيء آخر مهما كانت بساطته .
هذا القانون أو هذه المشاهدة أو هذا التلازم بين الأمور حيث لا وجود من دون موجد ولا مصنوع من دون صانع , وهذه هي خبرة الإنسان ومعرفته وأقصى ما وصل إليه من علم ومعرفة , فهل هو حقا قانون ملازم أو مسبب لوجودنا وهل الوجود ينطبق عليه هذا التلازم بين الاشياء حيث لا بد من موجد لوجودنا وخالق لهذا الخلق ؟
لن استرسل في السلسلة التي تبدأ بالموجود وانتهاء بمن أوجد موجد هذا الوجود , أي السلسة اللامنتهية , بل سأقول هل خبرتنا ومشاهداتنا وإدراك عقولنا وآلية سير الحياة في هذا الكون تنطبق أو أنها لازمة من لوازم الآليات التي تحاول أن تشرح وجود كوننا ؟
هل ما وصل إليه تفكير عقلنا حتى يومنا هذا يشكل دليلا أو هل يملك حقا أي شيء يؤيد بها فكرته هذه , والتي تقول أن الوجود مصنوع فلا بد له من صانع , فهذه استنبطناها من واقعنا وواقعنا لا يشكل دليلا لازما لما قبل وجودنا , فالاشياء بعد وجودها هي غير ما تكون قبل أن توجد , فلا يجوز أن تسأل عن شخص ما لم يأتي إلى الوجود بعد , فهنا نرى بأن سؤالك هنا لا منطقي لأن ذلك الشخص ( المفترض ) لم يخلق بعد وكذلك اسقاط ما تعودت عليه عقولنا وحواسنا على ما قبل وجود الوجود لا أرى فيها أي دليل على أنه لا بد من خالق للكون , فأنا لا اسقط ما رأيته الآن على ما يمكن أن يكون سابقا , وليس من العقول أن تكون هذه الفكرة هي الدليل لمجرد موافقتها لواقعنا وما يجري داخل كوننا , ولنفترض أن للكون خارجا فمن المؤكد أن ما يجري خارج الكون هو غير ما يجري هنا ,فما أريد قوله :
أنه لماذا يجب أن يكون هناك خالق لهذا الكون , هل لأننا لم نرى وجودا وجد من دون موجد , فهل إذا لم نرى ذلك فهل هذا يعني أنه مستحيل وأنه غير ممكن , وهل يصح أن نستشهد بدليل المشاهدة والخبرة والبديهة البشرية التي استقت هذه البديهة من واقعها فقط وليس من أي شيء آخر فنقول بأنه ليس من الممكن أن يوجد وجود من دون موجود , أي لا مصنوع من دون صانع , ولكن هذا حسب ما أعرف أنه يسمى بدليل الصانع وله صلة بدليل السببية وكلها تأتي من مبدأاستنتجه العقل الإنساني , وهذا الإستنتاج لا يعني أبدا أنه صحيح , قد يملك ادلة ومؤيدات من واقعنا وما تعودنا عليه , ولكن كما أن الله له قوانين خاصة به فكذلك لا مانع من وجود قوانين خاصة لا نعرفها ولا يمكن ادراكها او فهمها سبب هذا الوجود .
اعود وأقول بأن هذا الحل ( حل الصانع والمصنوع ) هو حل مستقى من الواقع ولا شيء يؤيده من الخارج ابدا سوى واقعنا وعقلنا فقط , ولكن استنباط حل من الواقع للاجابة على السؤال الذي يسأل عن كيفية خلق الكون ووجوده , ما هو إلا مجرد محاولة للإجابة ولكن لا يوجد أحد يستطيع أن يأتي ويمسك الورقة التي كتبت عليها هذه الاجابة ويصححها لنا أو يقبلها كجواب صحيح , فهذه الورقة ستبقى من دون تصحيح ابدا ما دام المصحح غائبا وغير موجود , فكيف سنعرف أن هذا الحل هو الصحيح أو أن هذا الاستنباط هو عين الحقيقة.

وشكرا
(تم إجراء آخر تعديل على هذه المشاركة: 11-02-2010, 06:34 PM بواسطة مسلم.)
11-02-2010, 06:31 PM
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الردود في هذا الموضوع
الرد على: إلى من يكفر بالذات الإلهية !! - بواسطة مسلم - 11-02-2010, 06:31 PM

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