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/global.php 958 eval
/showthread.php 28 require_once
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/global.php 961 eval
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/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
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/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
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/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code 2 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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{myadvertisements[zone_1]}
من هم اهل البيت عليهم السلام ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
على نور الله غير متصل
Banned
*****

المشاركات: 8,439
الانضمام: Apr 2005
مشاركة: #47
من هم اهل البيت عليهم السلام ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
اخى الفاضل زيد جلال
اولا:

تفضلت بالقول :
.........
أولًا: ألفت النظر إلى أنك لم ترد على كل أطروحاتي السابقة وخاصة فيما يتعلق بمعنى "مولى" والآية التي استشهدتُ بها والتي تحوي هذه الكلمة
..........
الجواب:
سننتقل ان شاء الله الى معنى مولى بعد الفراغ من اثبات صحة الحديث و الا فلا معنى من نقاش الكلمة ان لم يكن لها علاقة بموضوعنا .

ثانيا:
تفضلت بالقول :
.........
إذن فلنذهب لمسند الإمام أحمد ونقرأ:

21618 حدثنا عبد الله حدثني أبي ثنا الأسود بن عامر ثنا شريك عن الركين عن القاسم بن حسان عن زيد بن ثابت قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم انى تارك فيكم خليفتين كتاب الله حبل ممدود ما بين السماء والأرض أو ما بين السماء إلى الأرض وعترتي أهل بيتي وإنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا على الحوض. (مسند أحمد. ج5. ص 181)

فلننظر في راويين من رواة الحديث
.........
الجواب:
اخى الفاضل
اسمح لى بتوضيح نقطة
ايرادك لتضعيف الرواة بهذا الشكل غير سليم و غير مقبول لان معظم الرواة لابد ان تجد من يضعفهم و هذا لا يعنى ضعفهم بل هناك مقياس لمقدار من ضعفهم و من وثقهم .
حتى البخارى استطيع ان اذكر لك انه ضعيف بعرض من ضعف البخارى و لم يعتبره ثقة .
عندما اوردت لك الرواية فاننى اوردتها مع تصحيح الهيثمى لها فى مجمع الزوائد
فمع كل الاحترام و التقدير لك اخى الفاضل
هل انت اعلم من الهيثمى ؟؟؟؟؟
لم اعد اذكر لك روايات من المستدرك لانك رفضته و هو احد صحاح السنة الستة فاغضيت عن ذلك
فهل ايضا الهيثمى و تصحيحه مرفوض ؟؟؟؟
فسبحان الله
و اليك الرواية من طريق اخر فى مجمع الزوائد للهيثمى ايضا :

مجمع الزوائد. الإصدار 2.05 - للحافظ الهيثمي
المجلد الأول >> 2. كتاب العلم. >> 77. (بابان في وجوب الرجوع إلى الكتاب والسنة). >> 1. باب في العمل بالكتاب والسنة
.

784-وعن زيد بن ثابت عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال:
"إني تركت فيكم خليفتين كتاب الله وأهل بيتي وإنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا على الحوض".
رواه الطبراني في الكبير ورجاله ثقات. ص.414

اوردت لك تصحيح السند و اعتراف عالم سنى مرجع بانه صحيح و رجاله ثقات
فاعتقد ان ذلك يغنينا عن البحث فى كل رجل لاثبات ضعفه و توثيقه و الا فاننا لن ننتهى .
حجتى كشيعى تصحيح مرجع سنى لهذه الرواية و اعتبارها صحيحة و ليس لى ان اخوض بالسند و تصحيحه و تضعيفه لانها مسالة طويلة جدا .

اما اعتراضك على المتن فمرفوض ايضا لان الروايات الصحيحة التى اعتبرها العلماء صحيحة كثيرة فيصل الحديث لدرجة التواتر .

و اليك نفس الرواية من طريق اخر ورد فى مجمع الزوائد :

مجمع الزوائد. الإصدار 2.05 - للحافظ الهيثمي
المجلد التاسع. >> 37. كتاب المناقب >> 14. باب في فضل أهل البيت رضي الله عنهم
.

14957- عن زيد بن ثابت قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم:
"إني تارك فيكم خليفتين: كتاب الله عز وجل حبل ممدود ما بين السماء والأرض - أو ما بين السماء إلى الأرض - وعترتي أهل بيتي، وإنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض".
رواه أحمد وإسناده جيد.

و هذه ايضا حجة لى هذا الحديث
اعتراف الهيثمى و هو مرجع سنى بان الرواية اسنادها جيد
فهل بقى عندك اعتراض اخى الفاضل ؟؟؟؟؟
اذا لم يبق عندك اعتراض فعندها بامكاننا الانتقال الى المعانى المستفادة من الروايات و موافقتها لحوارنا بالرغم من اننى اعتقد ان المعانى اوضح من ان نوضحها .

ثالثا:
تفضلت بالقول :
..........
1- أننا أهل السنة والجماعة نأخذ الحديث من كتب الحديث لا من كتب التفاسير. والروايات التي تحويها كتب التفسير تسمى "أثر" أو "رواية" ولا يمكن تصنيفها أحاديث مطلقًا. وقد استخدم الحافظ ابن كثير لفظة "أثر" وهو يفند هذه الروايات المتهافتة. والحافظ ابن كثير من علماء الحديث. وسيادتكم أغفلت أن ابن كثير حكم بضعف هذه الروايات كلها وحكم بضعف رواتها. وقد أوردت لك ذلك في المداخلة رقم 23.

.............
الجواب:
يا عزيزى
الرواية صحيحة السند تؤخذ من كتب التفاسير و من كتب الحديث
نعم كتب التفاسير لا تهتم كثيرا بالسند كاهتمام كتب الحديث و لكن لا يعنى ذلك ان كل ما فى كتب التفسير مرفوض او ضعيف .


رابعا :
بالنسبة لراى التفاسير ساعرج عليه لاحقا ان شاء الله

خامسا:
بالنسبة لرواية :انصر من نصره و عادى من عاداه
فمرة اخرى لن اخوض بتفاصيل الرجال التى تطول و لا تنتهى
و يبقى كلام مراجع السنة هو حجتى فى كونها صحيحة
و تفضل هذا الراى :

كشف الخفاء، الإصدار 4.05 - للإمام العجلوني
حرف الميم.


2591 - من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه.
رواه الطبراني وأحمد والضياء في المختارة عن زيد بن أرقم وعلي وثلاثين من الصحابة بلفظ اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه

مجمع الزوائد. الإصدار 2.05 - للحافظ الهيثمي
المجلد التاسع. >> 37. كتاب المناقب >> 4. (أبواب) مناقب علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه. >> 5. باب قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم: "من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه".


14610- عن رباح بن الحارث قال: جاء رهط إلى علي بالرحبة قالوا: السلام عليك يا مولانا، فقال: كيف أكون مولاكم وأنتم قوم عرب؟ قالوا: سمعنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يوم غدير خم يقول:
"من كنت مولاه فهذا مولاه".
قال رباح: فلما مضوا تبعتهم فقلت: من هؤلاء؟ قالوا: نفر من الأنصار فيهم أبو أيوب الأنصاري.
رواه أحمد والطبراني إلا أنه قال: قالوا: سمعنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول:
"من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه، اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه".
وهذا أبو أيوب بيننا، فحسر أبو أيوب العمامة عن وجهه ثم قال: سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول:
"من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه، اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه".
ص.129
ورجال أحمد ثقات

مجمع الزوائد. الإصدار 2.05 - للحافظ الهيثمي
المجلد التاسع. >> 37. كتاب المناقب >> 4. (أبواب) مناقب علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه. >> 5. باب قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم: "من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه".


14612- وعن أبي الطفيل قال: جمع على الناس في الرحبة ثم قال لهم: أنشد بالله كل امرئ مسلم سمع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول يوم غدير خم ما قال لما قام، فقام إليه ثلاثون من الناس.
قال أبو نعيم: فقام ناس كثير فشهدوا حين أخذ بيده فقال: "أتعلمون أني أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم".
قال: فخرجت كأن في نفسي شيئاً فلقيت زيد بن أرقم فقلت له: إني سمعت علياً يقول كذا وكذا، قال: فما تنكر قد سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول ذلك.
ص.130
رواه أحمد ورجاله رجال الصحيح غير فطر بن خليفة وهو ثقة.

فهل بقى اعتراض اخى الكريم ؟؟؟؟؟
بارك الله فيك
و هدانا الله و اياك لما يحب و يرضى

اللهم صل على محمد و ال محمد
لا فتى الا على و لا سيف الا ذو الفقار

03-10-2006, 05:52 PM
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من هم اهل البيت عليهم السلام ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟ - بواسطة على نور الله - 03-10-2006, 05:52 PM

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