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/global.php 958 eval
/showthread.php 28 require_once
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/global.php 961 eval
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/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
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/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
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/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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{myadvertisements[zone_1]}
من هم اهل البيت عليهم السلام ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
على نور الله غير متصل
Banned
*****

المشاركات: 8,439
الانضمام: Apr 2005
مشاركة: #49
من هم اهل البيت عليهم السلام ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
اخى الفاضل زيد جلال :
اولا :
الحديث الذى اقصده هو بشكل عام مسالة الحديث و تقرير الولاية للامام على عليه السلام بنصوص صحيحة من الحديث .
بل تعدى الامر الى تقرير الخلافة لفظيا كما اثبتنا و سنؤكد هذا الاثبات فى هذه المداخلة ان شاء الله .

ثانيا:
تفضلت بالقول :
.......
الهيثمي يخطيء كثيرًا في علم الحديث. فأغلب رواياته لا يذكر لها سندًا متصلًا. كما أن كثيرًا من رواياته ضعيفة باعترافه. افتح كتبه هذه واقرأ ما يتعلق بسيدنا علي ستجده يُضَعِّف أغلبها هو بنفسه.
........
الجواب:
بصراحة يا اخى الفاضل انكم قد حيرتمونى :D
عندما احاور اخوانى من السنة و اثبت لهم صحة روايات وردت فى فضائل اهل البيت فهم يلجؤون الى مجمع الزوائد للهيثمى لاثبات ضعف هذه الروايات و يكفيهم ان يقول الهيثمى :و فيهم من لم اعرفهم لتكذيب الرواية .
الان عندما استشهد بالهيثمى و كتابه الذى اعترفت حضرتك بانه يضعف ما يجئ فى فضائل الامام على عليه السلام اى انه متشدد مع هذه الاحاديث الا انه هنا لم يجد بدا من الاعتراف بصحة الرواية و سندها فانك ترفض الهيثمى و مجمع الزوائد كما رفضت الحاكم و مستدركه .
اكرر مرة اخرى:
اهل السنة و الجماعة عبارة عن مدارس مختلفة و مذاهب مختلفة و من النادر جدا ان تجد من يوثقه و يجمع على توثيقه اهل السنة و الجماعة .
اكرر باننا اذا اردنا بحث هذه المسالة فسيطول الحوار و لن ينتهى كى نثبت ان فلانا ثقة ام لا
فيا عزيزى
انا اكتفى باثبات توثيق مرجع او اكثر من مراجع السنة للرواية و اعتبار سندها صحيحا و ثقته برجالها و هذا طريق يختصر على و عليك النقاش برجال الرواية .
طيب
تركت الحاكم صاحب المستدرك و اترك الهيثمى صاحب مجمع الزوائد المتعصب جدا فى انتقاء الروايات التى تخص اهل البيت و يكذبها لاضعف الاسباب و لكنه لم يجد مجالا و لا امكانا لتكذيب رواية :تركت فيكم خليفتين ....الخ
ساتركهما يا اخى و تفضل مصدرا اخر:

الجامع الصغير. الإصدار 3,22 - لجلال الدين السيوطي
المجلد الثالث >> [تتمة باب حرف الألف]


2631- إني تارك فيكم خليفتين: كتاب الله حبل ممدود ما بين السماء والأرض، وعترتي أهل بيتي، وإنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا على الحوضـ
التخريج (مفصلا): أحمد في مسنده والطبراني في الكبير عن زيد بن ثابت
تصحيح السيوطي: صحيح

يعنى السيوطى اعتبر الرواية صحيحة
الهيثمى المتشدد فى احاديث اهل البيت اعتبر الرواية صحيحة

معجم الطبراني الكبير، الإصدار 1.05 - للإمام الطبراني
باب الزاي >> زيد بن ثابت الأنصاري >> القاسم بن حسان عن زيد بن ثابت


حدثنا أحمد بن مسعود المقدسي ثنا الهيثم بن جميل ح وحدثنا أحمد بن القاسم بن مساور الجوهري ثنا عصمة بن سليمان الخزاز ح وحدثنا أبو حصين القاضي ثنا يحيى الحماني قالوا ثنا شريك عن الركين بن الربيع عن القاسم بن حسان عن زيد بن ثابت عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال إني قد تركت فيكم خليفتين كتاب الله وأهل بيتي وإنهما لم يفترقا حتى يردا علي الحوض (5/ 154)

مسند الإمام أحمد. الإصدار 2.04 - للإمام أحمد ابن حنبل
المجلد الخامس. >> مسند الأنصار رضي الله عنهم. >> حديث زيد بن ثابت عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم.


حدثنا عبد الله حدثني أبي حدثنا أبو أحمد الزبيري حدثنا شريك عن الركين عن القاسم بن حسان عن زيد بن ثابت قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم:
-إني تارك فيكم خليفتين كتاب الله وأهل بيتي وإنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض جميعا.

ثالثا:
تفضلت بالقول :
.......
ضع الرواية بسندها لننظر فيها إذا كانت رواية بسند لم نتعرض له من قبل. حكم عالم واحد لا يعني أن نصم آذاننا عن رأي باقي علمائنا المُحَدِّثين المدقيين الذي غربلوا الأحاديث بطريقة لم يسبق لها مثيل، ليضعوا أمام العالم علم التوثيق الذي شهده العالم لأول مرة على أيدي علماء السنة والجماعة
........
الجواب:
اخى الفاضل
اوردت لك اكثر من مرجع اعترف بالرواية و اعتبرها صحيحة بل متواترة .

رابعا:
انت تضعف فطر بن خليفة بينما وثقه كما تفضلت مراجع من علماء السنة .
يا عزيزى عدنا لنفس المشكلة
يا عزيزى لن اناقش بالرجال لانه علم مختلف عليه
انا اتيك بروايات اعتبرها مراجع من اهل السنة صحيحة .
انت تورد الرواية و فى نهايتها تعليق بان اسنادها حسن
ثم تحاول اقناعنا بانها ضعيفة فاتقى الله
و على كل حال اليك رواية اخرى و قل لى ما رايك :

البداية والنهاية، الإصدار 2.07 - للإمام إسماعيل بن كثير الدمشقي.
الجزء الخامس >> فصل خطبته صلَّى الله عليه وسلَّم بين مكة والمدينة


وقد روى النسائي في سننه عن محمد بن المثنى، عن يحيى بن حماد، عن أبي معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن حبيب ابن أبي ثابت، عن أبي الطفيل، عن زيد بن أرقم قال: لما رجع رسول الله من حجة الوداع ونزل غدير حم أمر بدوحات فقممن ثم قال: ((كأني قد دعيت فأجبت إني قد تركت فيكم الثقلين كتاب الله، وعترتي أهل بيتي، فانظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما، فإنهما لن يفترقا حتَّى يردا علي الحوض)).
ثم قال: ((الله مولاي، وأنا ولي كل مؤمن)).
فقلت لزيد: سمعته من رسول الله صلَّى الله عليه وسلَّم فقال: ما كان في الدوحات أحد إلا رآه بعينيه، وسمعه بأذنيه، تفرد به النسائي من هذا الوجه. (ج/ص:5/229)
قال شيخنا أبو عبد الله الذهبي.

البداية والنهاية، الإصدار 2.07 - للإمام إسماعيل بن كثير الدمشقي.
الجزء الخامس >> فصل خطبته صلَّى الله عليه وسلَّم بين مكة والمدينة


وقال النسائي في (كتاب خصائص علي): حدثنا حسين بن حرب، ثنا الفضل بن موسى عن الأعمش، عن أبي إسحاق، عن سعيد بن وهب قال: قال علي في الرحبة: أنشد بالله رجلاً سمع رسول الله صلَّى الله عليه وسلَّم يوم غدير خم يقول: ((إن الله ولي المؤمنين ومن كنت وليه فهذا وليه، اللهم وال من والاه، وعاد من عاداه، وانصر من نصره)). (ج/ص:5/230)
وكذلك رواه شعبة عن أبي إسحاق، وهذا إسناد جيد.

و من نفس المصدر السابق :

ثم رواه أحمد عن غندر، عن شعبة، عن ميمون أبي عبد الله، عن زيد بن أرقم، إلى قوله: ((من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه)).
قال ميمون: حدثني بعض القوم عن زيد أن رسول الله صلَّى الله عليه وسلَّم قال: ((اللهم وال من والاه، وعاد من عاداه

و من نفس المصدر :

وقال المطلب بن زياد عن عبد الله بن محمد بن عقيل سمع جابر بن عبد الله يقول: كنا بالجحفة بغدير خم، فخرج علينا رسول الله صلَّى الله عليه وسلَّم من خباء، أو فسطاط، فأخذ بيد علي فقال: ((من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه)).
قال شيخنا الذهبي: هذا حديث حسن.

و من نفس المصدر اليك هذا القول الفصل نقلا عن الذهبى :

قال : وصدر الحديث متواتروأما هذا الصوم فليس بصحيح، ولا والله ما نزلت هذه الآية إلا يوم عرفة قبل غدير خم بأيام، والله تعالى أعلم.

فما قولك الان اخى الفاضل ؟؟؟؟؟

اللهم صل على محمد و ال محمد
لا فتى الا على و لا سيف الا ذو الفقار











03-11-2006, 02:52 PM
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