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/global.php 958 eval
/showthread.php 28 require_once
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/global.php 961 eval
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/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
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/inc/functions.php 3442 eval
/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$forumjump_select - Line: 5 - File: inc/functions.php(3442) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/inc/functions.php 3442 eval
/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code 2 errorHandler->error_callback
/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1686) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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وجود الذات الإلهية بين الإثبات والنفي والحيرة
خالد غير متصل
عضو رائد
*****

المشاركات: 7,660
الانضمام: Apr 2004
مشاركة: #27
وجود الذات الإلهية بين الإثبات والنفي والحيرة
Array
طيب يا خالد ، لنبدأ من الاصول.

ما تعريفك لكلمة "وجود"؟

تعريفي هو ان الشئ يكون موجوداً اذا استطاع التأثير و/او امكن قياس احد خصائصه بالحواس (اللمس السمع البصر الشم التذوق) سواء بطريقة مباشرة او لا مباشرة.

هذا هو تعريف الوجود المعتبر علمياً وبحسبه لايكون الله موجودا.

هاتِ تعريفك..
[/quote]


جميل طنطاوي، دخلت في أصول الأصول....

قبل أن أخوض معك فيه أرى أنك اعتمدت "المعتبر علميا" أي الطريقة التجريبية الحسية العلمية، فهل تعتبرها المصدر الوحيد للمعرفة؟

وماذا تقول لمن يطالبك بدليل على ذلك أن هذه الطريقة الوحيدة المعتبرة؟ هل تثبت النظرية بذاتها؟
وهل الطريقة العلمية بالتفكير والبحث قادرة على إثبات امتناع المستحيل؟

نأتي للوجود، واعتباريته:

إن كانت الحواس هي الحكم الوحيد على الوجود، فعلميا نحن نعلم أن الحواس ناقصة، وأن كثيرا من الوجود لم يكن بإمكان الحواس إدراكه قبل 200 سنة، أو قبل خمسين سنة، فهل كان هذا الوجود معدوما فظهر؟ أم كان موجودا فتم الإحساس به؟
نحن نعلم أن العلم لا ينفك يتطور، وأن آلاتنا الناقصة لا تزال تتحسن، فبعد أن كان النيوترينو فرض رياضي فيزيائي صار وجودا على الحقيقة، بل إن ضديده الذي افترض وجوده لاكمال المعادلات لعله قد اكتشف قبلا، وكل هذه المعادلات كانت لتكون زندقة لو برزت قبل مائة عام من موعدها.
لا نعلم علميا هل الوجود المدرك المحسوس لدينا هو الوجود الوحيد، لا نعلم علميا عن الوجود إلا ما تدركه حواسنا، وهو يزداد كلما أضفنا لحواسنا قدرات باختراع آلات محسنة، وهذا ضمن كلامنا عن الوجود المادي فحسب.

أما الوجود، ففيه مادي يدرك، وفيه معنوي تدرك آثاره، ولا يعني عدم الإحساس بوجود ما عدمه، بل يعني غيبه عنا، فالأعمى منذ ولادته يغيب عنه اللون وتصوره، وهذا لا ينفي وجود اللون كعرض، ولو زعمنا له وجود ما نراه فلا مجال له أن يتيقن منه لعدم إمكانه رؤية أعيننا، وعدم استطاعته تصور أننا نرى ولو حاول!

والوجود المعنوي كثير، وليس له أي واقع مادي يمكن قياسه، فالصدق موجود، وله نقيض هو الكذب، بل الحسن والقبيح موجودان وهما متغايران فوق أنه لا يمكن قياسهما بالحواس، فأيضا تحار فيهما العقول وتتغاير، وتذهب كل مذهب وراء الهوى وغيره في التحسين والتقبيح.

هل تريد مني أن أعرف الوجود بعد هذه المقدمة الطللية؟

الوجود هو كل واجب أو ممكن، ظاهر أو غائب، مدرك أو متصور في الذهن. هذا فلنقل تعريف أولي يحتاج إلى مراجعة لتكتمل عناصره.

فنظرية امتناع وجود الجزء الأكبر من كله حقيقة واقعة موجودة ولو استحال قياسها بأي حاسة أو آلة نعرفها، لكنه لا يجادل بها إلا سوفسطائي محض!


وتذكر معي عزيزي طنطاوي هدف هذا الشريط هو عرض وغربلة أفكارنا القديمة حتى ما نظنها بديهية، فقد ينتهي هذا الشريط بإلحادي وإسلام لوجيكال والعلماني، ودخول نيوترال في جماعة الرب، إلخ.... رغم استبعاد هذا نظرا لطبيعة البشر! وهو رغم استبعاده وجود ممكن أيضا!
08-17-2007, 09:15 AM
عرض جميع مشاركات هذا العضو إقتباس هذه الرسالة في الرد
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الردود في هذا الموضوع
وجود الذات الإلهية بين الإثبات والنفي والحيرة - بواسطة خالد - 08-17-2007, 09:15 AM

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