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/global.php 958 eval
/showthread.php 28 require_once
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/global.php 961 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$bottomlinks_returncontent - Line: 6 - File: global.php(1070) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
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/inc/functions.php 3442 eval
/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$forumjump_select - Line: 5 - File: inc/functions.php(3442) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/inc/functions.php 3442 eval
/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code 2 errorHandler->error_callback
/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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{myadvertisements[zone_1]}
بحث في إثبات أنّ كاتب إنجيل مرقس مجهول
العميد غير متصل
عضو رائد
*****

المشاركات: 934
الانضمام: Jul 2003
مشاركة: #235
بحث في إثبات أنّ كاتب إنجيل مرقس مجهول
[quote] الراعي كتب/كتبت
2 - الأعتراض الثاني:
والذي يقول: " يوستينوس الشهيد : في فلسطين والغرب في حوالي 150م- (في حواره مع تريفو اليهودي): " وعندما يقال أنه (المسيح) قد أطلق على واحد من الرسل اسم بطرس، وعندما يسجل هذا في " ذكرياته " مع هذه الحقيقة الأخرى، وهى أنه قد أطلق على ابني زبدي لقب " بوأنرجس " أي أبنى الرعد 000 الخ ".
الرد
نقول : ليس في كلام يوستينوس أيّ إشارة إلى مرقس ككاتب للإنجيل ، وما يتحدث عنه هو مذكرات لبطرس ، ويقول إنّ بطرس بنفسه سجلها ، فهذا يشهد عليهم لا لهم . فإن قيل إنّ يوستينوس يقصد بـ " ذكرياته " إنجيل مرقس الذي كتبه مرقس ، نقول ، ومن أين علمتم أنّه يقصد ذلك ؟ هل اطلعتم على الغيب ؟
هذا القول هو ضرب من الظنون ، والظن لا يغني من الحق شيئاً . فإن قالوا ، ولكن الوحيد الذي ذكر عبارة بوأنرجس هو مرقس ( 3 : 17 ) ، فبالتالي الذكريات المقصودة هي إنجيل مرقس ، نقول وبالله تعالى التوفيق :
1 - لا يوجد دليل صريح أنّ الذكريات هي إنجيل مرقس ، ووجود هذه العبارة فيه لا تعني أنّها منه ، فلعل هذه العبارة كانت منتشرة على ألسن الناس ومعروفة لديهم ، فأخذها من كتب إنجيل مرقس وأثبتها في كتابه .
2 - أقصى ما يستفاد من عبارة يوستينوس هو أنّه اقتبس من إنجيل مرقس ، ولكنّه لم يقل إنّ مرقس هو كاتب هذا الإنجيل ، وبالتالي نعود معهم إلى السؤال من كتب إنجيل مرقس ؟
هذا ونلاحظ ( لو سلمنا جدلاً أنّ المقصود بالذكريات هو إنجيل مرقس ) أنّ هذا الإنجيل لم يكن معروفاً باسمه ، بل باسم " ذكريات بطرس " ، كما نلاحظ أنّ الكاتب هو بطرس . وهذا الكلام ترفضه الكنيسة القبطية الأرثوذكسية ، لأنّه لو صحّ أن المقصود بـ " ذكريات بطرس " هو ما سجله مرقس ، فهذا يعني أن إنجيل مرقس هو مذكرات لبطرس ، وهذا مرفوض عندهم لما مرّ معنا في النقطة الخامسة في الرد على شهادة بابياس ، فكيف ويوستيونوس يقول إنّ بطرس هو نفسه الذي يسجل ؟؟ ، فهذه أشد من سابقتها عندهم .
هذا ويوستينوس الشهيد لم يخبرنا من أين علم أن لبطرس مذكرات ، والزمن منقطع بينهما ، فبطرس مات حوالي سنة 67 م ، بينما ولد يوستينوس حوالي سنة 110 م ، أي بعد وفاة مرقس بعشرات السنين ، فعلى ذلك فشهادته باطلة من جميع الوجوه .


وللرد نقول أن هذا الزميل يتجاهل، عمداً، الحقائق الجوهرية التي أجمع عليها العلماء الباحثين والمدققين والمعروفين بالحيدة والنزاهة في البحث ، وهي أن كل الشواهد الآبائية تؤكد وجود إنجيل ضمن الأناجيل القانونية الأربعة باسم إنجيل مرقس، ويدل محتواه الداخلي ، كما بينا وكما سنعيد التأكيد، على أنه للقديس مرقس ، وأنه كان هناك إنجيل أبوكريفي (منحول ومزيف) باسم القديس بطرس.


أقول وبالله تعالى التوفيق :
هذا الكلام تعودنا عليه من الزميل الراعي ، دائماً ما يردد ( العلماء قالوا ، أثبتوا ، برهنوا ، الحقائق ، الأدلة ) ولكن للأسف كله كلام إنشائي لا حقيقة له على أرض الواقع .



ثم يقول :
[QUOTE]وعندما يذكر يوستينوس أحد الأناجيل الأربعة باسم " ذكريات بطرس " ، وهذا الإنجيل يحتوي على عبارات وآيات من الإنجيل للقديس مرقس ، وأن بعض آباء الكنيسة وليس بابياس فقط قالوا بصلة القديس بطرس بالقديس مرقس والإنجيل الذي دونه بالروح القدس، فلا يكون هذا الإنجيل سوى الإنجيل الثاني أو الإنجيل للقديس مرقس. ومن المستحيل أن يكون القصد منه الإنجيل الأبوكريفي أو أي إنجيل آخر باسم بطرس لأن جميع القوائم الخاصة بأسفار العهد الجديد القانونية لا تحتوي على مثل هذا الكتاب.

قلت : رد الزميل الراعي لا يصلح رداً على اعتراضاتي ، بل اعتراضاتي هي الرد المناسب على كلامه هنا ، فانظر أيها القارئ العزيز إلى ردي من الاقتباس :
(( ليس في كلام يوستينوس أيّ إشارة إلى مرقس ككاتب للإنجيل ، وما يتحدث عنه هو مذكرات لبطرس ، ويقول إنّ بطرس بنفسه سجلها ، فهذا يشهد عليهم لا لهم . فإن قيل إنّ يوستينوس يقصد بـ " ذكرياته " إنجيل مرقس الذي كتبه مرقس ، نقول ، ومن أين علمتم أنّه يقصد ذلك ؟ هل اطلعتم على الغيب ؟
هذا القول هو ضرب من الظنون ، والظن لا يغني من الحق شيئاً . فإن قالوا ، ولكن الوحيد الذي ذكر عبارة بوأنرجس هو مرقس ( 3 : 17 ) ، فبالتالي الذكريات المقصودة هي إنجيل مرقس ، نقول وبالله تعالى التوفيق :
1 - لا يوجد دليل صريح أنّ الذكريات هي إنجيل مرقس ، ووجود هذه العبارة فيه لا تعني أنّها منه ، فلعل هذه العبارة كانت منتشرة على ألسن الناس ومعروفة لديهم ، فأخذها من كتب إنجيل مرقس وأثبتها في كتابه .
2 - أقصى ما يستفاد من عبارة يوستينوس هو أنّه اقتبس من إنجيل مرقس ، ولكنّه لم يقل إنّ مرقس هو كاتب هذا الإنجيل ، وبالتالي نعود معهم إلى السؤال من كتب إنجيل مرقس ؟ )) .


ألا يصلح كلامي رداً عليه ؟
الزميل الراعي لا يرد على اعتراضاتي ، بل يعيد كلاماً فندناه ، والمفروض أن يأتي إلى تفنيدي ويناقشه ولكنه نادراً ما يفعل .


وأماقوله ( ومن المستحيل أن يكون القصد منه الإنجيل الأبوكريفي أو أي إنجيل آخر باسم بطرس لأن جميع القوائم الخاصة بأسفار العهد الجديد القانونية لا تحتوي على مثل هذا الكتاب ) .

فهناك إنجيل بطرس الأبوكريفي ، وقد ضاعت منه أجزاء كثيرة ، فلا مانع أن يكون المقصود هو هذا الإنجيل .


ويقول :
[QUOTE] ثانياً: وجود هذا الإنجيل، مهما كانت التسميات، وقبول الكنيسة له كأقدم إنجيل يكتب، ووجود معظم محتواه ، خاصة في اٌنجيل للقديس متى والإنجيل للقديس لوقا، والاعتراف به ككتاب موحى به من الله وحده كاف لكونه يضم كلمة الله بصرف النظر عن معرفة مدونه وكاتبه بالروح القدس.

قلت : نحن نطلب الدليل على أن مرقس هو الكاتب ، والزميل يذهب بعيداً بكلام بعيد ، ثم يساند رأيه بأن معظم إنجيل مرقس موجود في إنجيلي متى ولوقا ، وهذا لا يزيد المسألة إلا وهناً على وهن ، إذ أن الإنجيلين المذكورين أسوء حالاً من إنجيل مرقس ، إذ أن كاتب كل منهما هو الآخر مجهول .

وهذا الكلام كله خارج عن الموضوع ، إذ أن السؤال هو هوية كاتب إنجيل مرقس .


[QUOTE] ثالثاً: لم يتردد أحد من آباء الكنيسة في قبول هذا الإنجيل مع بقية الأناجيل الأربعة ككلمة الله وإنجيل المسيح المكتوب بأوجهه الأربعة، ولم تثار ضده أية اعتراضات من أي نوع ، كما أجمع العلماء على هذه الحقيقة. وهذا وحده كاف لبيان صحته.

هذا كلام إنشائي ، وماذا لو قال له المسلم ( إن القرآن هو كلام الله ، لأنه لم يتردد أحد من العلماء المسلمين على مر العصور في الإقرار بهذا القول ) هل يقبل به دليلاً ؟؟
لا لن يقبل به أبداً .
وكذلك هذا الكلام لا يصح بل أثيرت الاعتراضات عليه كثيراً ، وكذلك رفضه ماركيون ( الذي يعتبرونه هرطوقياً من القرن الثاني ) ، بل لم يقبل إلا إنجيل لوقا .
وكذلك نذكر إنجيل مرقس السري في رسالة لاكلمندس الإسكندري .

والسؤال أكرره حتى لا يذهب الزميل الراعي بذهن القارئ بعيداً ، ما هو الدليل على أن مرقس هو من كتب إنجيل مرقس ؟
فإن كان عنده فليتفضل به ، ولا يدخلنا في متاهات ، فالإنجيل لا يمكن معرفة أنه من عند الله إلا إذا عرفنا الكاتب ، ثم على الكاتب نفسه أن يصرح بذلك ، وأن يثبت أنه تلقاه من الله وعليه أن يثبت دعواه بالأدلة والبراهين ، أما الكلام الإنشائي الذي لا يفتأ الراعي بترداده لا يسمن ولا يغني من جوع .

[QUOTE] رابعاً كتب يوستينوس كمسيحي لتريفوا اليهودي أو للإمبراطور الروماني ، وهذا وذاك لم يكن يعنيهما من كتب الإنجيل، ومن ثم خاطبهم القديس يوستينوس بمحتوى الإنجيل ككلمة الله وجوهر رسالة المسيح .

كلام خارج الموضوع !!
نكرر : ما هو الدليل على أن مرقس هو من كتب إنجيل مرقس ؟

أما أنه خاطبهما بمحتوى الإنجيل ككلمة الله فهذا لا ينفع إلا في موعظة يوم الأحد للمؤمنين النصارى .


وبعد كل هذا نرى بوضوح كيف أن الزميل تجاهل المعضلة التي تنغص عليهم ( كأرثوذكس أقباط ) ألا وهي أنّ يوستينوس يصرح بكل وضوح أن الذكريات - التي يعتقدونها إنجيل مرقس -هي من تدوين بطرس نفسه وليس مرقس ، وهذا ما ترفضه كنيسة الفاضل الراعي ، حيث تنكر بشدة أن يكون الإنجيل مذكرات لبطرس ، فكيف ويوستينوس يقول إن بطرس نفسه هو سجلها ؟؟

وكذلك ترك الزميل قولي ( هذا ويوستينوس الشهيد لم يخبرنا من أين علم أن لبطرس مذكرات ، والزمن منقطع بينهما ، فبطرس مات حوالي سنة 67 م ، بينما ولد يوستينوس حوالي سنة 110 م ، أي بعد وفاة مرقس بعشرات السنين ، فعلى ذلك فشهادته باطلة من جميع الوجوه ) .


فهذا يدل أن ما يفعله الزميل هو حشو وحشر الكلام من هنا وهناك حتى يوهم أتباع الكنيسة البسطاء الذين يقرؤون هنا أنه أجاب ورد على كل شيء ، والكثير منهم ينخدع بهذا الأمر فيكفيهم أن يلقوا نظرة ويقرؤوا العنوان وسطرين ليطمئنوا على إيمانهم ، دون أن ينظروا إلى الحجج ويتفكروا بها .


يتبع إن شاء الله ..
04-25-2006, 04:20 PM
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