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/global.php 958 eval
/showthread.php 28 require_once
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/global.php 961 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$bottomlinks_returncontent - Line: 6 - File: global.php(1070) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
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/inc/functions.php 3442 eval
/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$forumjump_select - Line: 5 - File: inc/functions.php(3442) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/inc/functions.php 3442 eval
/showthread.php 673 build_forum_jump
Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code 2 errorHandler->error_callback
/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 1690 eval
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $posttime - Line: 2 - File: showthread.php(1690) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.19 (Linux)
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/inc/functions_post.php 898 pluginSystem->run_hooks
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 thankyoulike_postbit
/inc/functions_post.php 898 pluginSystem->run_hooks
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/inc/functions_post.php 898 pluginSystem->run_hooks
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بحث فى مصطلح ابن الله فى العهد الجديد
fancyhoney غير متصل
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المشاركات: 2,545
الانضمام: Apr 2005
مشاركة: #88
بحث فى مصطلح ابن الله فى العهد الجديد
الزميل ee
ماذا فعلت انت غير انك امنت و صدقت بكلام دهماء المنتديات ؟
اضفت بعض الصور و لفقت بعض التزويرات ؟
احسنت


1- هل كان اليهود المعاصرون يتهمون عيسى ؟
اطلاقا
بل كان امامهم ابن يوسف و هذا ما كان يعوق فهم بعضهم عن ادرك قوته الحقيقية
((( و هذه هي النصوص القاطعة و التى تكفى وحدها لاسقاط تلك الاكاذيب )))

و كان الجميع يشهدون له و يتعجبون من كلمات النعمة الخارجة من فمه و يقولون اليس هذا ابن يوسف(لو4 :22)

45 فيلبس وجد نثنائيل و قال له وجدنا الذي كتب عنه موسى في الناموس و الانبياء يسوع ابن يوسف الذي من الناصرة(يو1 : 45)

اليس هذا هو النجار ابن مريم ( مت 13 : 6 ), (مر 6 :3)
(1)



2- هل اتهم اليهود عيسى ؟
صحيح و لكن ليس اليهود المعاصرين , بل يهود ما بعد الاعلان عن حقيقة المسيح و عن تحقيق النبوة فيه و هذا لا علاقه له بانجيل يوحنا


3- ما معنى ما جاء في انجيل يوحنا ؟

في المداخلة 60 استشهد ee بادم كلارك

فيحسن ان اعرض كلامه بعد ان اعرض النص

(ا) 18 انا هو الشاهد لنفسي و يشهد لي الاب الذي ارسلني* 19 فقالوا له اين هو ابوك اجاب يسوع لستم تعرفونني انا و لا ابي لو عرفتموني لعرفتم ابي ايضا (يو 8)

من السياق يظهر ان المسيح يتحدث عن ( الآب ) فليس الرسالة هي رسالة (يوسف النجار )
لكن اليهود لم يفهموا و لم يعرفوا حقيقته
فظنوا انه يتكلم عن شخص ارضى
فسألوه ( اين ) لكى يسمعوا شهادته

و هل يسأل عن الآب ب( أين )لكى نسمع شهادته ؟

فهذا لا يدل الا على انهم لا يعرفون الآب


*** هل قول المسيح لستم تعرفون ابى يعني ان اباه زنى و اختفى ؟

لا يكون و إلا فما معنى انهم لا يعرفونه ذاته ( المسيح )
و لكنهم لا يعرفون الآب مثلما لا يعرفون الابن ( اي لا يعرفون حقيقته )
فمعرفة الابن هي الطريق الوحيد لمعرفة الاب

قال له يسوع انا هو الطريق و الحق و الحياة ليس احد ياتي الى الاب الا بي (يو 14 :6)


فمن اين فهم الخطير ee و امثاله ان في هذا اتهام لعيسى ؟
و ها هو كلارك فاشبع به
Verse 15. Ye judge after the flesh
Because I appear in the form of man, judging from this appearance, ye think I am but a mere man-pay attention to my teaching and miracles, and ye shall then see that nothing less than infinite wisdom and unlimited power could teach and do what I have taught and performed. Our Lord speaks here exactly in the character of an ambassador. Such a person does not bring a second with him to vouch his truth; his credentials from his king ascertain his character: he represents the king's person. So our Lord represents the Father as bearing witness with him. The miracles which he wrought were the proof from heaven that he was the promised Messiah: these were the great seal of all his pretensions.

Verse 19. Ye neither know me, nor the God that sent him.

If ye had known me
If ye had received my teaching, ye would have got such an acquaintance with the nature and attributes of God as ye never could have had, and never can have any other way. That is a true saying, No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son, who lay an the bosom of the Father. he hath DECLARED him. The nature and perfections of God never can be properly known, but in the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

نعم
كلارك ايضا يقول ان الغير معروف هو ( الله ) ابوه (2)
و ليس يوسف


(ب) 31 فقال يسوع لليهود الذين امنوا به انكم ان ثبتم في كلامي فبالحقيقة تكونون تلاميذي* 32 و تعرفون الحق و الحق يحرركم* 33 اجابوه اننا ذرية ابراهيم و لم نستعبد لاحد قط كيف تقول انت انكم تصيرون احرارا* 34 اجابهم يسوع الحق الحق اقول لكم ان كل من يعمل الخطية هو عبد للخطية* 35 و العبد لا يبقى في البيت الى الابد اما الابن فيبقى الى الابد* 36 فان حرركم الابن فبالحقيقة تكونون احرارا* 37 انا عالم انكم ذرية ابراهيم لكنكم تطلبون ان تقتلوني لان كلامي لا موضع له فيكم* 38 انا اتكلم بما رايت عند ابي و انتم تعملون ما رايتم عند ابيكم* 39 اجابوا و قالوا له ابونا هو ابراهيم قال لهم يسوع لو كنتم اولاد ابراهيم لكنتم تعملون اعمال ابراهيم* 40 و لكنكم الان تطلبون ان تقتلوني و انا انسان قد كلمكم بالحق الذي سمعه من الله هذا لم يعمله ابراهيم* 41 انتم تعملون اعمال ابيكم فقالوا له اننا لم نولد من زنا لنا اب واحد و هو الله* 42 فقال لهم يسوع لو كان الله اباكم لكنتم تحبونني لاني خرجت من قبل الله و اتيت لاني لم ات من نفسي بل ذاك ارسلني* 43 لماذا لا تفهمون كلامي لانكم لا تقدرون ان تسمعوا قولي* 44 انتم من اب هو ابليس و شهوات ابيكم تريدون ان تعملوا ذاك كان قتالا للناس من البدء و لم يثبت في الحق لانه ليس فيه حق متى تكلم بالكذب فانما يتكلم مما له لانه كذاب و ابو الكذاب* 45 و اما انا فلاني اقول الحق لستم تؤمنون بي* 46 من منكم يبكتني على خطية فان كنت اقول الحق فلماذا لستم تؤمنون بي* 47 الذي من الله يسمع كلام الله لذلك انتم لستم تسمعون لانكم لستم من الله* 48 فاجاب اليهود و قالوا له السنا نقول حسنا انك سامري و بك شيطان* 49 اجاب يسوع انا ليس بي شيطان لكني اكرم ابي و انتم تهينونني
(يو 8)


لماذا لا نقرأ ما فات ؟
ما هو الرعب الذي يتملك ee ان قرأ و فهم ؟
النص يتكلم عن الحرية المعطاة في الابن
الحرية من الخطايا و من ابليس (34 اجابهم يسوع الحق الحق اقول لكم ان كل من يعمل الخطية هو عبد )

و لكن اليهود - بالعرف الرومانى - الحرية هى الولادة من نسل احرار
اليهود - بالعرف اليهودي - هم ابناء ابراهيم الاعظم في الديانات الابراهيمية

لذا
اجابوه اننا ذرية ابراهيم

هل قالوا هذا لكى يتهموا عيسى ؟

ابدا
بل اقترن هذا النسل عندهم ب
و لم نستعبد لاحد قط كيف تقول انت انكم تصيرون احرارا


هذا الكلام ليس ( شرشحة - كلمة مصرية تعبر عن نوع من الهجاء - او ردح ) كما يجدها من فهموها بهذه الطريقة في بيئتهم فاسقطوا حال بيئتهم على النص و النص منها براء

و كان يجب على ee الا ينقل عنهم

هذاالكلام له هدف محدد
اليهود - جرحى السبى و الاحتلال - ينكرون ان تتأثر كرامتهم - و تعلم عصبية اليهودي - باحتلال ما
فهم احرار و ابناء احرار


فهل تكفى بنوتهم لابراهيم ليكونوا احرارا
نعم هم ابناء ابراهيم و لكن هذه ليست مزية

و لا تبتدئوا تقولون في انفسكم لنا ابراهيم ابا لاني اقول لكم ان الله قادر ان يقيم من هذه الحجارة اولادا لابراهيم ( لو 3 :8)

فليس المهم هو النسل الجسدي
بل اليهود ابناء الشر
ابناء ابليس



41 انتم تعملون اعمال ابيكم فقالوا له اننا لم نولد من زنا لنا اب واحد و هو الله* 42 فقال لهم يسوع لو كان الله اباكم لكنتم تحبونني لاني خرجت من قبل الله و اتيت لاني لم ات من نفسي بل ذاك ارسلني* 43 لماذا لا تفهمون كلامي لانكم لا تقدرون ان تسمعوا قولي* 44 انتم من اب هو ابليس و شهوات ابيكم تريدون ان تعملوا

لم نولد من زنا
مرة اخرى هذه ليست ( الشرشرحة ) التى يراها من نقل عنهم ee في بيئتهم
و ليس فيها اي اسقاط على عيسى
بل هي محاولة للدفاع عن نفسهم
فها هو يقول ( انتم تعملون اعمال ابيكم )

اذن فرجت
فابينا هو الله و لسنا ابناء زنى لذلك نعمل اعمال الله
فاثبت المسيح لهم انهم ليسوا ابناء الله لانهم لا يحبون الابن الذي( خرج من قبل الله )
بل هم ابناء ابليس لانهم يعملون شهواته


واضح ان النزاع هنا ليس على ابوة ( شمعون ) او ( دزرائيلي ) بل على النسب الي ( الله) او ابليس


و انقل ايضا كلام كلارك فيكفيك هذا
We be not born of fornication
We are not a mixed, spurious breed-our tribes and families have been kept distinct-we are descended from Abraham by his legal wife Sarah; and we are no idolaters.

We have one Father, even God.
In the spiritual sense of father and son, we are not a spurious, that is, an idolatrous race; because we acknowledge none as our spiritual father, and worship none as such, but the true God. See Bishop Pearce


فهو دفاع عن كيان اليهود العرقى - المرتبط بحريتهم - المتوقف عند ابراهيم (3)
و عن نسبتهم لله
ولا يوجد اي اتهام لعيسى ( لمن يفهم اي نص ادبى او تاريخي )
بينما دائما المسيح يشير الى انه هو ( الابن )









من (1) اليهود يعرفون ان المسيح هو ابن يوسف و مريم
(2) المسيح يقول ان اليهود لا يعرفون الله ابوه
(3) اليهود ليسوا ابناء زنا لذا هم احرار ( في نظرهم ) وواضح ان المسيح كان حرا ايضا


يتضح ان المعنى الذي وضعه ee هو كذب و انعكاسا لبيئة البعض و ليس هو المقصود لذوى العقول



لم لم يفهم ee و امثاله هذه المعانى ؟
يقول الرب

43 لماذا لا تفهمون كلامي لانكم لا تقدرون ان تسمعوا قولي
(تم إجراء آخر تعديل على هذه المشاركة: 04-14-2007, 01:49 PM بواسطة fancyhoney.)
04-14-2007, 01:09 PM
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