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NEW_MAN
عضو رائد
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المشاركات: 1,759
الانضمام: Dec 2002
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الحوار حول : من هو يسوع المسيح ؟؟
اقتباس: zaidgalal كتب/كتبت
من شروط هذا الأمر: ان يكون الكاتب معروفًا ويعلن أنه موحى إليه. وأن لا يُثْبَت في تاريخ أمة هذا الكاتب أنهم شكوا في سفره ورفضوه جيلًا كاملًا. وأن لا يشهد مفسر كبير من امته مثل وليم باركلي أن عدد ألغازه يساوي عدد كلماته. وأن لا يعرب أكثر علماء الكتاب المقدس اليوم بأنهم لا يثقون فيه. وإلا من الصعب للغاية أن تخاطب به أناسًا من غير أمتك!!!
تحياتي[/SIZE][/CENTER]
اعلان يسوع المسيح الذي اعطاه اياه الله ليري عبيده ما لا بد ان يكون عن قريب وبيّنه مرسلا بيد ملاكه لعبده يوحنا
2 الذي شهد بكلمة الله وبشهادة يسوع المسيح بكل ما رآه.
3 طوبى للذي يقرأ وللذين يسمعون اقوال النبوة ويحفظون ما هو مكتوب فيها لان الوقت قريب
4 يوحنا الى السبع الكنائس التي في اسيا نعمة لكم وسلام من الكائن والذي كان والذي يأتي ومن السبعة الارواح التي امام عرش
( رؤيا يوحنا 1 : 1 - 4)
انا يوحنا اخوكم وشريككم في الضيقة وفي ملكوت يسوع المسيح وصبره كنت في الجزيرة التي تدعى بطمس من اجل كلمة الله ومن اجل شهادة يسوع المسيح.
( رؤيا يوحنا 1 : 9)
وانا يوحنا رأيت المدينة المقدسة اورشليم الجديدة نازلة من السماء من عند الله مهيأة كعروس مزينة لرجلها
(رؤيا يوحنا 221 : 2)
وانا يوحنا الذي كان ينظر ويسمع هذا.وحين سمعت ونظرت خررت لاسجد امام رجلي الملاك الذي كان يريني هذا.
(رؤيا يوحنا 22 : 8)
:97:
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| 06-03-2005, 07:25 AM |
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المتمرد
عضو متقدم
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المشاركات: 260
الانضمام: Apr 2004
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الحوار حول : من هو يسوع المسيح ؟؟
[SIZE=6]صواريخ جديدة تثبت جهل أبو الفواصل
بما أنك تحب الترجمة ، فنرجو أن تترجم لنا الجزء المكتوب بالخط الكبير والملون باللون الأحمر: وهي كلها من أقوال وشهادات آباء الكنيسة التي تؤكد بأن كاتب سفر الرؤيا هو يوحنا بن زبدي (الإنجيلي) تلميذ الرب
Ireneaus:
[SIZE=6]Such, then,being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end) -- (Adversus Haereses, Book V, Chapter 30)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103530.htm
Those who have become acquainted with the secondary (i.e., under Christ) constitutions of' the apostles, are aware that the Lord instituted a new oblation in the new covenant, according to [the declaration of] Malachi the prophet. For, "from the rising of the sun even to the setting my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice;" [SIZE=6]as John also declares in the Apocalypse: "The incense is the prayers of the saints." (Fragments from the lost writings of Ireneaus, XXXVII)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0134.htm
Tertullian:
[SIZE=6]Now the Apostle John, in the Apocalypse, describes a sword which proceeded from the mouth of God as "a doubly sharp, two-edged one." This may be understood to be the Divine Word, who is doubly edged with the two testaments of the law and the gospel--sharpened with wisdom, hostile to the devil, arming us against the spiritual enemies of all wickedness and concupiscence, and cutting us off from the dearest objects for the sake of God's holy name. (Against Marcion, Book III, Chapter 14)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03123.htm
Origen:
[SIZE=6]For none of these plainly declared His Godhead, as John does when he makes Him say, "I am the light of the world," "I am the way and the truth and the life," "I am the resurrection, "I am the door," "I am the good shepherd;" and in the Apocalypse, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." We may therefore make bold to say that the Gospels are the first fruits of all the Scriptures, but that of the Gospels that of John is the first fruits. (Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book I)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101501.htm
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John, son of Zebedee, says in his Apocalypse: "And I saw an angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the Eternal Gospel, to preach it to those who dwell upon the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people, saying, with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory, for the hour of His judgment hath come, and worship Him that made the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." (Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book I)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101501.htm
Add to these testimonies also the saying, "I am the bread of life, that came down from heaven and giveth life to the world." These texts will suffice for the present, which we have picked up out of the storehouse of the Gospels, and in all of which He claims to be the Son of God. [SIZE=6]But in the Apocalypse of John, too, He says, "I am the first and the last, and the living One, and I was dead. Behold, I am alive for evermore." And again, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, and the first and the last, the beginning and the end." (Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book I)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101501.htm
Now, if truth be one, it is clear that the preparation of it and its demonstration, which is wisdom, must in reason be conceived as one, since what is regarded as wisdom cannot justly claim that title where truth, which is one, is absent from its grasp. But if truth is one and wisdom one, then Reason (Logos) also, which announces truth and makes truth simple and manifest to those who are fitted to receive it, will be one. This we say, by no means denying that truth and wisdom and reason are of God, but we wish to indicate the purpose of the omission in this passage of the words "of God," and of the form of the statement, "In the beginning the Logos was with God." [SIZE=6]The same John in the Apocalypse gives Him His name with the addition "of God," where he says:"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and He that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness doth He judge and make war. And His eyes are as a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He hath a name written which no one knoweth but He Himself. And He is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood, and His name is called Word of God. And His armies in heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in pure fine linen. And out of His mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations, and He shall rule them with a rod of iron, and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. And He hath on His garment and on His thigh a name written: King of kings, and Lord of lords." (Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101502.htm
[SIZE=6]What are we to say of him who leaned on Jesus' breast, namely, John, who left one Gospel, though confessing that he could make so many that the world would not contain them? But he wrote also the Apocalypse, being commanded to be silent and not to write the voices of the seven thunders. But he also left an epistle of very few lines. Suppose also a second and a third, since not all pronounce these to be genuine; but the two together do not amount to a hundred lines. (Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book V)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101505.htm
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For we find with John in his Apocalyse, the promise made to him that overcomes, that he will be a pillar in the temple of God, and will go no more out. All this I have said with a view to our obtaining a cursory view at least of the matters pertaining to the temple, and the house of God, and the Church and Jerusalem, which we cannot now take up systematically. (Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book X)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101510.htm
Augustine of Hippo:
Accordingly, although that dove is called the Spirit; and in speaking of that fire, "There appeared unto them," he says, "cloven tongues, like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them; and they began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance; in order to show that the Spirit was manifested by that fire, as by the dove; yet we cannot call the Holy Spirit both God and a dove, or both God and fire, in the same way as we call the Son both God and man; nor as [SIZE=6]we call the Son the Lamb of God; which not only John the Baptist says, "Behold the Lamb of God," but also John the Evangelist sees the Lamb slain in the Apocalypse. (On the holy trinity, Book II)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130102.htm
Eusebius:
It is said that in this persecution [SIZE=6]the apostle and evangelist John a "If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian." (Eusebius, Church history, Book III, Chapter 18)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm
Bishop Hippolytus of Rome:
For the Sabbath is the type and emblem of the future kingdom of the saints, when they "shall reign with Christ," [SIZE=6]when He comes from heaven, as John says in his Apocalypse: for "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years."(The extant works and fragments of Hippolytus: Exegetical, On Daniel, II, 4)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0502.htm
But some one will say to me, You adduce a thing strange to me, [SIZE=6]when you call the Son the Word. For John indeed speaks of the Word, but it is by a figure of speech. Nay, it is by no figure of speech. For while thus presenting this Word that was from the beginning, and has now been sent forth, he said below in the Apocalypse, "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; (The extant works and fragments of Hippolytus: Dogmatical and Historical, Against the heresy of one noetus, 15)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0503.htm
Justin Martyr:
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And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. (Dialogue with Trypho, LXXXI)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm
Clement of Alexandria:
Those, then, also now, who have exercised themselves in the Lord's commandments, and lived perfectly and gnostically according to the Gospel, may be enrolled in the chosen body of the apostles. Such an one is in reality a presbyter of the Church, and a true minister (deacon) of the will of God, if he do and teach what is the Lord's; not as being ordained by men, nor regarded righteous because a presbyter, but enrolled in the presbyterate s because righteous. And although here upon earth he be not honoured with the chief seat, he will sit down on the four-and-twenty thrones, judging the people, [SIZE=6]as John says in the Apocalypse. (The Stromata, Book VI, Chapter XIII)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm
The Works of Justin which have come down to us:
He writes also that even down to his time prophetic gifts shone in the Church.[SIZE=6] And he mentions the Apocalypse of John, saying distinctly that it was the apostle's. (Eusebius, Church history, Book IV, Chapter 18)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250104.htm
Theaphilus Bishop of Antioch:
Of Theophilus, whom we have mentioned as bishop of the church of Antioch, three elementary works addressed to Autolycus are extant; also another writing entitled Against the Heresy of Hermogenes, [SIZE 6]in which he makes use of testimonies from the Apocalypse of John, and finally certain other catechetical books. (Eusebius, Church history, Book IV, Chapter 24)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250104.htm
Melito [Bishop of Sardis (one of the seven churches in Revelation)] and the Circumstances which he records:
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In those days also Melito, bishop of the parish in Sardis, and Apolinarius, bishop of Hierapolis, and the work On the Corporeality of God, and finally the book addressed to Antoninus. (Eusebius, Church history, Book IV, Chapter 26)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250104.htm
راجع أيضا ما تقوله The Catholic Encyclopedia تحت مادة Apocalypse
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The author of the Apocalypse calls himself John. "John to the seven churches which are in Asia" (Ap., i, 4). And again, "I, John, your brother and your partner in tribulation . . . was in the island which called Patmos, for the word of God" (i, 9). The Seer does not further specify his personality. But from tradition we know that the Seer the Apocalypse was John the Apostle the son of Zebedee, the Beloved Disciple of Jesus. At the end of the second century the Apocalypse was acknowledged by the historical representatives of the principal churches as the genuine work of John the Apostle. In Asia, Melito, Bishop of Sardis, one of the Seven Churches of the Apocalypse, acknowledged the Revelation of John and wrote a commentary on it (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl., IV, 26). In Gaul, Irenaeus firmly believes in its Divine and Apostolic authority (Adversus Haer., V, 30). In Africa, Tertullian frequently quotes Revelation without apparent misgivings as to its authenticity (C. Marcion, III, 14, 25). In Italy, Bishop Hippolytus assigns it to the Apostle St. John, and the Muratorian Fragment (a document about the beginning of the third century) enumerates it along with the other canonical writings, adding, it is true, apocryphal Apocalypse of St. Peter, but with the clause, quam quidam ex nostris in ecclesia legi nolunt. The Vetus Itala, moreover, the standard Latin version in Italy and Africa during the third century, contained the Apocalypse. In Egypt, Clement and Origen believed without hesitation in its Joannine authorship. They were both scholars and men of critical judgment. Their opinion is all the more valuable as they had no sympathy with the millennial teaching of the book. They contented themselves with an allegorical interpretation of certain passages but never ventured to impugn its authority. Approaching more closely the apostolic age we have the testimony of St. Justin Martyr, about the middle of the second century. From Eusebius (Hist. Eccl., IV, xviii, 8), as well as from his dialogue with the Jew, Tryphon (c. 81), held in Ephesus, the residence of the apostle, we know that he admitted the authenticity of the Apocalypse. Another witness of about the same time is Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis, a place not far from Ephesus. If he himself had not been a hearer of St. John, he certainly was personally acquainted with several of his disciples (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl., III, 39). His evidence however is but indirect. Andreas, Bishop of Caesarea, in the prologue to his commentary on the Apocalypse, informs us that Papias admitted its inspired character. From the Apocalypse undoubtedly Papias derived his ideas of the millennium, on which account Eusebius decries his authority, declaring him to have been a man of limited understanding. The apostolic writings which are extant furnish no evidence for the authenticity of the book.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm
فلا أدري لماذا أخفى زيد (أبو الفواصل) كل هذه المعلومات ولم يستشهد بالموسوعة الكاثوليكية هذه المرة وبل استشهد بموسوعة كولومبية جيبوتية صومالية أفغانية:lol:
فحجتك بأن فلان أو فلان (مجرد شكوا) بأن الكاتب هو يوحنا حجة ضعيفة لا قيمة لها على الإطلاق ، لأن من حق الكل أن يشك ولكن تبقى الدلائل والبراهين يا أبو الفواصل
وبعد أن تترجم لنا هذه الأقوال والشهادات التي تلجم أكبر معترض ، سنتكلم عن الشك يا زيد ونرى من هو الشكاك الحقيقي في كلام ربه ومن هو الذي يحلل الشكل لأتباعه :23:
هل ستهرب مرة أخرى كما هربت من قبل أكثر من عشرين مرة ؟ :emb:
لا ، وأخوه المسلم عم يطبله ويكبرله وشوي تانية رح يقوم يدبك :?:
قال فاصلة قال :lol:
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| 06-03-2005, 01:58 PM |
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الحوار حول : من هو يسوع المسيح ؟؟
